Working Sessions – Episode 18 – Qualifying Prospects
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[00:00:00] James Sowers (Castaway): All right, John, welcome back to another working session, man. I know it's been a while. I know you were out of the country putting your toes in the sand for a well deserved step away from work for the most part. Hopefully. So welcome back to the States and hope you had a good time. And you know, I've just been chugging along with business as usual, but I'm excited to get back into the, the updates either way, because I'm sure that even though you were away editor in just still had a lot going on and there's.

[00:00:28] Probably some stuff that we want to share. I don't know. How are things on your end before we get into the, the meat and potatoes of the

[00:00:32] John Doherty (EditorNinja): conversation? Yeah. Good to see James. Things are, things are good. Yeah. The, the break in Mexico was great. I was in Mexico City for five days with my wife. Without the kids.

[00:00:41] So it was nice to go to some awesome restaurants and museums and that kind of thing. Felt like pre pandemic, pre kidd travel, which was nice. And then I flew from there over to Cabo and I went to Cabo Press with Chris Lima and about 40 other entrepreneurs, which was just an awesome, awesome, awesome time.

[00:00:58] Like it's my fifth time there. I led a, a conversation on running multiple businesses at the same time. So kind of gave the frameworks that I've developed in over this. For running multiple companies. So a lot of people got value from that, which was great, but it was also in the pool. So I sat by the pool, had my feet in the water, and, you know, led that discussion.

[00:01:16] So, but it's just, you know, it's a great, great event. I always get a lot from it. Had some great takeaways from it this time as well, which we can get into here today. But, you know, just getting to sit around the pool with people like, you know, Brian Clark from Copy Blogger and Sonya Simone, who is his, you know, his business partner, who is, you know, arguably the, the best copywriter of all time getting to go deep with.

[00:01:35] Old relationships and, and meeting new people that, you know, got a lot of value from and continued to get a lot of value from. So yeah, it was, it was awesome and came back just like ready to go and, you know, came back to fall in Colorado, which is the best time of year to be here, so,

[00:01:49] James Sowers (Castaway): yeah. Yeah, Totally agree.

[00:01:51] I like when it cools off a little bit. I feel like, I don't know, I just feel like everybody's a little more active in the fall. You know, like the summer, there's a lot going on, but it's also like hot and muggy and so you get. These little brief sprints, but then everybody just kind of want to, wants to come back and catch some AC or whatever.

[00:02:05] But the fall cools off a little bit, you know, and then you're getting out there doing hikes and stuff like that. So yeah, one of my favorite times of year. Year too. Totally. Yeah. Cool, man. Well, for the icebreaker, I know you put this tweet out the other day. I think this was actually probably before you left for Cabo Press, but it was mainly about like people coming into the Editor Ninja sales process and saying like, Hey, how rough can my article.

[00:02:25] For me to still send it to editor and engine, have you guys basically fix it, quote unquote. And the way that I'm interpreting this is like, I bet some folks are using some AI writers or some low cost like international labor, they're outsourcing it to maybe some entry level writers or people who don't speak English as their first language.

[00:02:42] And they're like, Can I still pass this to you and will you shine this up and, and make it look pretty? And uh, yeah, I don't know. I think, I think the core message there, if I'm not misinterpreting that is like, I don't know. How do you, how do you have the confidence to say no to bad fit clients or you know, how do you suss that out?

[00:02:56] How do you do that delicate dance of like, Yeah, I'd love to work with you, revenue is great, but I feel like maybe you just don't understand the value of our service or how we fit into your workflow. Mm-hmm. . So where was your head at, I guess, when you published that and what has some of the public reaction been to it?

[00:03:09] Yeah,

[00:03:09] John Doherty (EditorNinja): I actually tweeted it yesterday cause I had a. Pretty frustrating sales call, like discovery call, not even sales call, just a discovery call, and got that question. I've gotten that question a lot, honestly, and I, I've learned over the years to like really try to double click on it and try to figure out what's going on.

[00:03:23] And usually it's people that like, they get the value of content, but they're super busy and they wanna just be able to get out like a shitty first draft and then have someone make it look incredible, Right? It's a mindset thing. I think it's, you know, I, I'm glad that people appreciate, you know, like, know that content matters.

[00:03:38] You know, I wish people. would put more effort into it, Right. And kind of realize like what role they need. Like we can't take, Wait. We had someone six, I don't know, 6, 8, 12 weeks ago that like sent us an article to edit and they were basically like, Can you make this read like this? And they linked us to a Pulitzer Prize winning New York Times journalist piece.

[00:03:57] And I'm like, , No . So like we, we, we did edit it. We significantly improved it. And they're like, Oh, like they just weren't happy. I'm like, You know what? I'm just refunding you. Like, Yeah. It's just not, it's just not gonna work. And you just, you get those people, you know. But, you know, I think the, the bigger thing that it made me think about is like, you know, how do you, how do you get more of those right fit.

[00:04:15] Clients and dz Daniel Zurich, who runs Arrows. arrows.to, I believe is, is the URL that it's like a HubSpot onboarding software, basically, I think is, is kind of what they've settled on. But he replied and said that they've been thinking about that as well. And so, you know, I, I guess like, you know, well, From your perspective, how do you think about, like, you know, you get leads in, how do you think about generating them, qualifying 'em, and then like, walking away from the ones that aren't a good fit?

[00:04:41] I mean, I, I've got the ways I do it, but I'd love to hear your, your take on

[00:04:44] James Sowers (Castaway): it. It's something that I wrestle with because I have this like soft spot in my heart for bootstraps and like I want to help the people who have. Who are hobbyist podcasters who have a show kind of like this one that's just getting off the ground.

[00:04:56] It's something they do for fun or whatever as part of their personal branding effort, but like they don't have a ton of budget behind it because they don't have sponsors. They don't read ads, they don't, it doesn't tie directly to their business or something like that. I wanna help those folks. But it's not sustainable for me long term to help those folks.

[00:05:10] At least not in the service capacity. Can I make a course for them? Sure. Can I write a book that they can use? Sure. Can I do a coaching call with them? Sure. Right. There are a number of different ways I can help, but I think that like where things work the best are people who are already doing the thing and they either want to outsource it to somebody else to take over because they figured it out for themselves, but they wanna get their time.

[00:05:33] Or they're doing the thing, but they wanna hire an expert to do it even better. I think the folks who are just starting a show, and, and this this counts for companies as well as individuals, right? If a, if an individual has a personal brand with a hundred thousand followers on Twitter and a 10,000 person email list, and they wanna launch a podcast like, They still might not be a great client for me, even if they can afford me, because they don't know what it takes to produce a podcast yet, and right.

[00:05:58] They're at a higher risk of churn because they're gonna learn really quickly that it's hard to show up every single week. It's hard to get people behind the microphone to be guests. It's hard to promote that consistently combined with everything else you're already doing. So like they still may not be a great client for me.

[00:06:12] Think, think the sweet spot is a company or a person who has already been podcasting for a while, has a proven archive of at least 25 episodes. They know what it takes to produce not just an individual episode, but an entire season or an ongoing show for a long period of time. And mm-hmm. , they know how much work it is to pass off whatever they're gonna be hiring Castaway to do.

[00:06:32] And those are kind of our best fit clients. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to focus more of my energy. Where do I get in front of people like that? Where do I get in front of podcasters with established shows, which means how this translates into tactics, And then I'll hand it back over to you. There's somebody out there, Jeremy Ends, who has a course called Podcast Marketing Academy, right?

[00:06:49] Mm-hmm. . And there's a certain subset of his membership that has established shows and they're learning how to market it better. Those folks could be great clients for me, but there's another subset of folks who want to launch a podcast for their agency, their software company, whatever. And if they're learning from Jeremy how to get started, they are not my target audience.

[00:07:09] I'm weighing all these opportunities of working with somebody like Jeremy and, and being an affiliate for his course or coming in and being a, a guest mentor or a coach or something like that. Mm-hmm. , I gotta think about the audience there because if they're too early in the, in the process, then I probably just should pass on that opportunity altogether.

[00:07:23] But if they're farther along, if they're companies with a line item on their budget specifically for the podcast and podcast promotion, then it starts to be more of a, a serious conversation around how can I come in, help add value, that kind of

[00:07:34] John Doherty (EditorNinja): thing. Yeah, exactly. I think that's, I. . As marketers, we should always go back to the audience, right?

[00:07:40] I mean, business builders, but marketers are we getting in front of the people who recognize the need and are taking it seriously, right? I mean, these people that are just going and spinning up a ton of AI content, right? Like. Not a fit, you know, for, for Ed and Ninja for example, but the people that are like consistently producing content.

[00:07:58] So it's gonna be mature brands and content agencies, Right. That are producing it for clients. Right. And good, good content for clients. Cause it's going on places like Entrepreneur and Forbes and you know, like, like industry leading sites. Cause those are the links that actually move the needle. Right? Or it's going on this like, Publicly traded company or like unicorn, you know, companies like site, right?

[00:08:16] And so it needs to be good. They're not publishing crap, right? So anyone that's just, just using AI content or like even solopreneurs, like obviously like we're both solopreneurs solo founders. And so like, I have built my career off of content, but I, I just know that like, it's really the mindset shift of like from the, how can I put in the least amount of, of effort to produce something like great to.

[00:08:36] I am committed to producing something great, no matter how long it takes, right? So if it means I'm putting out one piece a month rather than five pieces a month, which doesn't really work with our like model, so they're not a good fit anyways. Well, they would be with like a single document, but you know, those are the people I wanna work with.

[00:08:51] The ones that are like committed to putting out something freaking awesome, not just a volume of content because they have to, you. Yeah, so for me it's have they been consistently producing content? Do they have a process for creating that content? Right? Do they see the direct, like monetary outcome from that?

[00:09:06] Right. More leads, like that sort of thing, right? Not just like, Oh, I'm putting out content to like create an audience. It's like, well, they're not, they, they don't have the budget defined. They're not actually like thinking about this in a business way. They're just thinking about it as like a, Oh, I'm just an internet person that creates content, Right?

[00:09:21] Versus like an actual creator that's building a creator driven business. They might be a good fit, right? Because they know like how, how much better quality content and like edited content actually like, you know, drives them more, more traffic and more sales and all of that, right? Not just traffic, but traffic and sales ties it directly back to the, And then for us then, I'm realizing with Editor Ninja as well, it is people who have used an editor before.

[00:09:44] So the person I spoke with yesterday, the sales call, literally their first question was, can you explain to me what an editor. And I was like, Okay, this conversation's not gonna go well . Right? Or it's just like, not, not gonna be, you know, a good, a good fit. Versus like last week I was speaking with my friend who is the, like the ops person at a, at a hosting company, and they were like, I need a, like, subject matter expert.

[00:10:07] I can define the topics, but I need a subject matter expert that can review this stuff because like, you know, I like, she's like, I could send it to you to edit, copy proof, et cetera, but like I actually need a subject matter expert to make sure that the content is actually good and it covers everything cuz you can't talk about.

[00:10:23] You know, it's the WordPress space. Can't talk about Gutenberg blocks without talking about like, you know, full sight editing, for example. She's like, I read this piece. She's like, I'm an ops person and I read this piece and knew that they had missed this. I would love to outsource that. Right? So they're like producing awesome content.

[00:10:37] They have the budget as well, which I'm realizing is a big one. So it's like kind of all those things coming together. It's like, have they worked with an editor before? Do they have the budget? Right? Are they like, are they viewing content as like a part of their business or it drives their business, not just like something they do for fun, You know?

[00:10:51] So it is very much the same thing. Right? So it's really like, are they a serious buyer? They have the budget, they, they see the need. They have the budget, they've worked with an editor before and it's a big problem for them, right? That like their business isn't gonna be able to operate or they're not gonna hit their goals because they're not editing and you know, making sure it's like keeping it with the brand and that kind of thing.

[00:11:08] So that's kind of how I'm, how I'm thinking about it. But I will say, James, the one thing that shifted in my mind from like building credo early days to building edit into your early days is to get more of those people. So like that qualification needs to happen in the sales process, like in the discovery.

[00:11:23] Don't qualify people out too early. So with Eder Ninja, I'm like, I'm just gonna drive as much traffic as I can. That's, and with that we're gonna capture. You know, whatever, 5% as leads and then half of those are gonna be qualified. Right. Totally fine. Right? Cause we end up with significantly more than like just trying to target the people that are really like looking to buy right now.

[00:11:45] Yeah. So like we are targeting those people with are service pages and such, but at the end of the day I'm like, let's just drive a shitload of traffic and like qualified is traffic, but like not all of it's gonna be qualified and just accept that that's the fact, which is a shift in my brain. most of my career, where it was just like, No, let's just concentrate on these like eight keywords.

[00:12:02] So if you're gonna drive a super targeted traffic, like no, let's just get as many people and like build a brand in this space and get people that are creating anything online. Cuz people that aren't thinking about it, well now they're gonna change their minds later and they're gonna know about us and they're gonna come and use us because they've been reading our stuff for five years and you know, we, we've made them better.

[00:12:20] But we're also gonna capture the people that. , we need this right now and we're willing to drop 2,500 bucks right now to get this chunk of content edited, you know, in the next like 10 days.

[00:12:30] James Sowers (Castaway): I think you nailed it there. What I was gonna say is like, uh, about those three points budget, are you already doing this?

[00:12:34] Or how are you already, Like, I literally ask those in a sales conversation. I say like, Hey, do you have a specific budget for podcast production and promotion? I don't need the number. I just need, is it a line item on your budget that you're tracking in a spreadsheet somewhere or in QuickBooks or whatever?

[00:12:48] Good. Okay. You have. What have you already tried or what resources are you already throwing this way? Like do you have a person on your team who owns podcasting? How long have they been working on it? Is there attention divided between that and other tasks? Like basically trying to figure out how seriously are you taking this?

[00:13:03] And then the one that I really like to ask that I don't, I don't know if you covered, so forgive me if I'm repeating all of them, but the one new one that I was thinking of is like, how do you define success when it comes to. Content marketing when it comes to podcasting. So you talked about like how does this align with your quarterly metrics or your goals or your revenue or whatever like that.

[00:13:21] That's part of it, but part of it is also like I'm trying to suss out, do they think that success for podcast repurposing and promotion, it's exclusively downloads and subscribers? If so, we're probably not a great fit because I can't guarantee virality for you. If you're looking for virality. That's not something that I can replicate, and, and that's not something that's sustainable for me.

[00:13:42] What I can do is make sure that every episode you publish is getting repurposed into multiple formats so that you can maximize the value across all these different channels, which isn't going to happen. So if you need a solid line for roi, From my activities to money for your business, that's probably not gonna be something I can deliver on.

[00:14:00] And therefore, maybe you're not the best fit client because you're gonna come in and be disappointed in churn. But if you define success for your podcast as more awareness marketing, filling your content queue across multiple social media channels, publishing consistently on your blog or your newsletter based on material you're already producing elsewhere, right?

[00:14:17] That kind of thing, And you just trust that somewhere down the. That's gonna come back to you in the form of revenue, and there's more of a dotted line between the podcast activity and top line revenue and profit eventually, then maybe we're a better fit because that's something that I can deliver and I can deliver on showing up and producing those assets for you.

[00:14:34] If you've already found the belief that like podcasting is valuable and we just have to make our piece with like, maybe we're not gonna have clear attribution for it, but we're willing to invest. We feel reasonably confident that it works. So that's one thing I love to ask, and I don't try to lead them in any way.

[00:14:48] I say like, how do you define success when it comes to podcasting and maybe dig a little deeper. So I don't know. I just wanted to share that, frankly, listening, because like I'm not afraid to ask those questions directly in a sales conversation. Do you have budget? Do you have resources? How do you define success?

[00:15:01] Yeah. And if those three answers don't align with my ideal persona, then. Be transparent about saying like, Hey, maybe this isn't a great fit for you. Let me tell you how I approach things if that changes your opinion. Okay. But if it doesn't, then I want to be upfront about like, casing might not be the great fit for you.

[00:15:16] These folks might be better. Yeah. I don't know. Do you have any reaction to any of that? I

[00:15:19] John Doherty (EditorNinja): completely agree with it. It's really like, it's kind of what I was getting at with the like, Are they tying it back to their business, right? Like what is ultimately their goal? And also if that is their goal, if, you know, if they say, Well, we wanna get more leads out of our, out of our content that we're producing, right?

[00:15:33] We're investing in this and we're just not getting the conversions that we want. So how do we get more out of those? And we think, you know, part of the, the puzzle is editing. Cool. So do you have, do you have tracking in place, right? Like how are you gonna know that the, this is succeeding, right? How long are you giving it?

[00:15:47] Like how are you tracking it? All of that. Right? How are you gonna be able to say like, this is a success or not? No, I will say also James, with some people, it's like, I, I'm also trying to realize that sometimes you just have to sell 'em what they want. That like, if they, if they just, you know, we have a, we have some content agencies that they got on and they signed quick because they have budget, because they were paying a full-time editor to.

[00:16:10] And then the editor quit. And they're like, We have 150,000 words of content that is not edited, that is just sitting and we don't have anyone to do it. And so they sign up and literally within a day they've got content back edited. You know, it's like magic. So for them, it's just like they know they need an editor.

[00:16:25] Right. And it's not even like they're trying to tie it back. They just need to make sure the content they're sending to clients is good so they don't get fired. Right. And editing is the way that they do that. And they're now, they're saving, you know, 50% on their editing costs because they're not employing someone full-time.

[00:16:38] And we're, they're getting just as much content. So, and it's just as good if not better, but, so it kind of comes down to like, you know, when you have different personas, I guess. Right? So like, what an agency wants for us is different from what, like an an in-house person, like a content manager at a brand once, Right.

[00:16:52] For them it's, they're, they're, you know, on the hook for leads and, you know, and that sort of stuff. But once they get big enough, then it's really just like, is it on brand? They just wanna make sure that it's on brand, you know, versus a content agency. It's, we just can't send content with typos like a guest post for Forbes for one of our clients with, you know, with Ty.

[00:17:08] So we need to make sure that, you know, it gets accepted on the first go

[00:17:11] James Sowers (Castaway): sort of. And I think that's in support of your point earlier about casting a wide net in terms of your content marketing and trying to get traffic to the site. Yeah. And maybe not being as discerning in terms of which keywords you target because like you need reps at this and that's how you figure out Yes.

[00:17:25] Which patterns and which commonalities show up. And you need to talk to a lot of bad fit clients to figure out what those criteria are. And then you have a Google doc off to the side and you start to build out those personas and you're like, okay. I'm starting to see this common avatar come up again and again of the content marketing agency that had somebody leave the team and now they have this big backlog and like success for them is unclogging that pipeline and getting that work out to clients because they're waiting on it.

[00:17:51] Like that's success for them. And then you might have another content marketing agency that's like, for me, I need editing that's affordable because I've tried hiring. Fulltime and we're not at a place now where we can pay salary plus benefits. That's competitive. Yep. So I need to work with editor ninja's, a little bit more scalable, a little more predictable, whatever.

[00:18:07] Mm-hmm. Don't know. You get those up, but the only way to do that is to have a lot of conversations and take notes on the conversations you're having to identify those trends and commonalities. So you start to build those avatars and then you kind of get this sales playbook where it's like, if they say ROI is important to them, then reply with this.

[00:18:24] If they say that, you know, Publishing consistently is their goal. Then say this, and then you start to have something that improves your close rate. Right. And also gets more, more right. Fit clients in the door. Right. You kind of tighten up that filter.

[00:18:37] John Doherty (EditorNinja): Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's, It's all a process.

[00:18:41] It's all a process. Yeah. Especially early on. Right? You're just like, every single call you're learning, you know, like earlier this summer I talked about how I. , fewer people were closing than I thought it should be closing. Right? And so like you're adjusting the offer and you're adjusting how you message it, you're overcoming your objections better and all of that.

[00:18:58] This is why, you know, it takes time to get these things really going. And, and even with Head and Ninja, like I consider myself pretty lucky. We had our first, you know, six figure ARR month. Last month we did 8,400 in revenue, which is awesome. But also, Churn is higher than it should than I, than I want it to be.

[00:19:14] And we lost some customers and I'm like, they shouldn't have churned, right? What are we doing wrong? All of that. Like you're figuring out all these processes and what it's gonna take to make this service like successful. And then eventually, you know, you keep working at it and then eventually it's like, All the blocks are there and then it really takes off, right?

[00:19:29] You've got the traffic, you've got the lead generation, you've got the sales process, you've got the onboarding process, you've got the retention process, right? Like, I mean, first things first, it's just like, can you deliver the offer? Right? Can we get content back professionally edited in the time that we give, Right?

[00:19:42] For you, it's you have the people in place to do all the things that are required to repurpose a podcast episode into all these, like, into all these various formats, right? That's great. We have to nail that. But then we have to build all these other parts of the business as well in order to then actually be able to scale.

[00:19:56] It's a, you know, it's, it's a constant, like that's the hard thing about these early stage businesses is it's just, it's, it's just a lot of work. Right. And when you're doing it part-time right on the side of something else, everything just, just takes longer,

[00:20:09] James Sowers (Castaway): you know? Yeah. All right. Well, I think we nailed that one.

[00:20:11] Maybe we'll get into the editor ninja updates. I know it's been a while since we last talked, so, um, what's been going on, on your side of the. Yeah,

[00:20:18] John Doherty (EditorNinja): so in the last month I brought on one new editor, which was good. They were, they were needed and I'm really glad that I did. Cause I signed a big deal last week from the Cabo airport.

[00:20:27] Signed a, signed a big like editing deal. So that was, that was awesome. Neil felt like a great win to the end of the week. So, you know, they're on board and now I'm just, You know, trying to keep the marketing engines going and just driving leads. You know, it's interesting. I don't feel, I don't feel an expedience around like scaling this thing super fast.

[00:20:44] Like, I'm fortunate to be in a place where like, I don't, I don't have to, but I am ambitious and I want to, So, you know, really just like with on the op side, just really trying to like set the base for, like, for example, people can upload a single document, right? Pay for a document, like one off to get edited.

[00:20:59] So it's great for like people that are just. Putting out a big piece a month or something, but they don't have like a login right now, right? So I'm like, All right, everyone needs to have a login. , you know, So we capture their email like that, right? And like, how do we make it easier for them to pay? So I have a credit card on file, which means Stripe is gonna decline fewer, like all that sort of stuff.

[00:21:15] So I'm really like just trying to set the base with that. And then along with that operation or or reporting. But basically I've had two, two thoughts recently, or two things I'm really like thinking through are. One is that is just. How do we set the base around like reporting and make sure that we, you know, were getting in editors at the right time?

[00:21:33] Not too early, although I'd rather be too early than too late, just cuz it's, you know, stressful too, you know. I, I don't wanna not be able to sell or not feel good selling because, you know, I don't feel like we have the capacity, but that, that one's pretty well solved. But I am realizing that the way I've been calculating kind of the capacity needed is not accurate because people basically use about 60 to 70% of their capacity, like on average.

[00:21:57] So if someone, you know, is signed up to the, you know, base level, 20,000 ish words, a month, thousand ish words a day. They're probably only gonna do 12 or 14,000 words. So like, I actually shouldn't base like capacity and how full we are off of 20,000 words. I should base it off of like 15. Right. So, so just kind of figuring out some of those numbers that you just, you just figure that stuff out as you build and you know, and all that.

[00:22:19] So this was a realization that I had last week in Cabo. One of the, the conversations was around one, there's like always recurring themes and one of them for me, I think, I think Brian Clark actually brought it up and then Sonya continued it and some other people continued it as well. And their conversations was around the like, like authenticity and actually like being, like being the light.

[00:22:39] And if you wanna like be the, the leading brand, you actually need to lead through example. And so for Ed and Ninja, I want the brand to be all about like creativity and creating and putting more content out into the world and getting your ideas into the world and all of that. And using it to build businesses.

[00:22:51] Yes. But like overall, like let's just celebrate creativity and brands creating awesome stuff. And then I. That, you know, I built my career off of blogging, but I haven't really blogged much in the last three to four years. And I miss it. And so it was kind of a kick in the butt for me that I'm like, or just a, a conviction that I'm like, ah, if I want this brand to be all about creation, I need to be the person that can lead that brand, right?

[00:23:17] And that can, can lead that brand into being the industry leader because we're celebrating creativity and because of, and like I need to be creating. And I have all these blog posts written, like they're in draft, in notion, and I just haven't published 'em. And so I'm like, John, I just need to be braver, right?

[00:23:32] I need to like step up and like be willing to like, cause a ruckus in the industry because like Yeah, like in a good way, right? In a, in a helpful way. Not in a, like going after people way, but just in a like, Taking strong stances on things like maybe stronger than I actually feel, simply because like, it's gonna, it's gonna move the industry in a good direction, right?

[00:23:51] It'll never get to where I want it to be or think it should be, but it'll move people a step closer. Right? And so, like, I'm, I'm pretty excited to like, do a lot more of that and just like get my thoughts out into the world again and in, in like longer form like format, right? Anyways, it was, it was just a, a conviction to me that I think er Ninja can be a seven figure business.

[00:24:10] Credos gotten to the like mid to high six figures and like I'm a six figure CEO right now. I need to step up, right? I need to step up my mindset. I need to step up like how I'm leading. Editor Ninja will not be a seven figure business if I do not have a seven figure mindset, right? And part of that seven figure mindset is leading by example.

[00:24:27] You know, being super, like clear about the brand that we're building and the people that we employ and all of that, and holding to those standard.

[00:24:33] James Sowers (Castaway): So, yeah, I, I think there's a reason that, like, there's a popular phrase that the, the cobbler's children have no shoes, right? Like, that's, that's a pretty common phrase, especially among the, the agency folks.

[00:24:42] It's. Yeah, I mean, at the good, we're a CRO agency. If every time I look at our site I'm, I'm embarrassed, honestly. Like there's so much we could do to improve the user experience on our own site, but we're so bogged down in the day to day that we just don't protect the time to make that happen. Sure. So to your point, like we could be the brand that we're trying to help everybody else become in that way, and I don't think you're alone in a lot of folks.

[00:25:04] Like for example, I run a podcast repurposing company. We're pretty consistent about showing up to record this podcast. Publishing has been a challenge for me, and all it takes is like all it takes is a message. I, I think the, the thing that I'm taking away from that is like, at least in my, in the podcasting example, like my clients, I'm struggling with the same exact problem my clients are struggling with.

[00:25:23] So to me that's, that's validation for like, there is a need for this because I, I know what to do and I still find ti trouble finding time to do it. So, I don't know. I think I don't, I'm excited for you to start embodying that because I think that's something that a lot of people want to do and not everybody makes the, the commitment that you're standing here making today.

[00:25:42] Yeah, I just need to get my mind right, but also have the actions back up the mindset to get us where we want to be. You know, cuz like one of, one of the core values that I'd like to have for Castaway is like, I think everybody, not that I think everybody should have a podcast, but I think everybody should have.

[00:25:56] Some kind of platform for their voice to be heard. And I don't mean voice in the literal sense, but like you have a unique experience on this earth that nobody else has had. And although other people have been through similar experiences, they've never looked at 'em through your eyes with all the past experiences you brought to the table there.

[00:26:12] So I think that everybody has a unique spin on whatever topic they want to. And I just firmly believe that people, whether it's a newsletter, a blog, a podcast, a YouTube channel, I think the world would be a better place if we would share our thoughts more openly and transparently and consistently. And I think podcasting is just one way to do that.

[00:26:29] So I could be better about building my own personal brand and doing the same thing. I'm right there with you.

[00:26:32] John Doherty (EditorNinja): Yeah. Well, going back to what we were talking about with like attracting the right people. Like if you're putting out content, right, like putting a ton of time, like more effort into this podcast than a client's podcast, for example, you're gonna attract more people that want like this level of podcast, right?

[00:26:48] Or, or that level of like repurposed content, that kind of thing. You know? Same with with editor and Ninja like. , if we're putting out more awesome industry leading content, we're gonna attract people that are at brands and that are at agencies that are putting out that level of content. Right. Versus if we're putting out stuff that's like just, okay, we're gonna attract people that are putting out stuff that's just okay.

[00:27:07] Right. So like, yeah, you, you, you attract what you, what you put out into the world, you know? So, yeah. I, I think that's really worth like thinking about. Yeah. Just like, who are you trying to attract, and then are you living up to that level as well? Which is hard. Yeah. But I think that's the real challenge of building a brand and building a strong offering that a lot of people miss.

[00:27:26] You get shit clients cuz you're putting out shit work. Well what if you're putting out top quality work, Right? You're gonna get top quality clients. I mean, I, I spend a lot of time in the mountains, right? You're in the mountains, You wanna attract deer to your property. If you put out salt, right, deer, love salt, you are more likely to attract deer.

[00:27:43] It doesn't mean you're going to get deer, but you're more likely to get them right. So you're giving yourself a better chance at it, and you put it in different locations, you put it away from the dog, like that kind of thing, right? You give yourself more chances to, you know, to get what you want. So same thing with building a

[00:27:56] James Sowers (Castaway): business.

[00:27:56] To bring a full circle from the icebreaker, I think it's like if you have a problem with not having enough qualified client prospect, Maybe you need to hold yourself to the same standard, and if you embody the principles that you're trying to see in the prospects coming through your pipeline. Then you might be more inclined to attract that type of person.

[00:28:14] So I think, I think that's really spot on. Cool. Anything else on the editor Ninja side of the

[00:28:18] John Doherty (EditorNinja): house? Nah man. That's what's going on right now. What's going on with the Castaway? Cool. Yeah,

[00:28:22] James Sowers (Castaway): it's just a quick update here. I've noticed that our sales pipeline, I don't know if you're seeing this too, seems to be in a bit of a holding pattern.

[00:28:27] Like all the conversations that we're like, Yeah, we're ready to get started. We wanna pick up in October. And then I look at the calendar and it's October 13th and I'm sending my follow ups and they're like, Don't worry man, you're still on my list. I just have to wrap up a couple of things. It's busy season for us or.

[00:28:39] And then I wanna start by the end of the month. So I'm just seeing some of that. And you know, I, I think based on what, I know, these deals will close, but I'm wondering if it's normal seasonality or if it's economic concern or if it's just an anomaly. I'm not really sure, but I are, Are you seeing that on your side of the house?

[00:28:54] Just like sales pipelines seem to be extended a little bit

[00:28:57] John Doherty (EditorNinja): right now? I am seeing that, yeah. I would say our sales pipeline feels s. It's like, we'll have some good ones in and people are like, Yeah, I'm gonna get going. And then they push it off and push off by a couple weeks and then like, Oh, that thing didn't close.

[00:29:11] And so like, I still wanna do it, I'm convinced, but this thing, and yeah, definitely seeing that it's weirder than it has been in a, in many years. We see that at Credo too. Like people taking longer to decide to make decisions and such. Like it's just, I don't know. I think it's, I, I don't think usually September, October is big, our big sales months cuz people are like back from vacation.

[00:29:32] And that hasn't materialized this year. Just like the summer dip was bigger than I expected at both my companies. Right. And like, like volume fell off earlier in the year than I expected. And, and all of that. It's just like, it's a weird, it's a weird time, but I think it's a great excuse to like, not excuse, but it, it gives us space to like actually work on honing our offers and honing our copy and, you know, and that kind of thing.

[00:29:54] So, you know, there's, there's good things that come from it, but yeah, it's, I'm seeing exactly the.

[00:29:59] James Sowers (Castaway): I will say, I think this is a good time of year based on my past experience to reach out to leads that kind of went radio silent, or even do some cold or lukewarm outreach and say like, Hey, if you're putting your budget together for next year and you want Editor Ninja, or you want editing to be a part of that, I'm here to help you in a no pressure situation, like figure out how to make that work.

[00:30:20] And that's something I'm thinking through is like, I mean, I don't wanna be spammy, but like do I do an outreach campaign to podcast showrunners or businesses that have podcasts or something like that and just say, Hey, you're probably putting your budget together for next year. You're getting ready to get that finalized.

[00:30:32] If you don't have a line item for repurposing and you'd like to, I'd love to talk about what that could look like for you, and we'll see what happens. But this is the time of year where those conversations are happening and, uh, they're starting to lock those numbers down. So I've found that it can work for you in two ways.

[00:30:44] One, it can, maybe somebody has some extra budget departmentally that they need to spend, or they're gonna lose it to another department. They love to write those checks at the end of the year, and they're, and they'll prepay for January or. And then the other side is true. Yeah. I'm setting my budget up for next year.

[00:30:58] I'd be happy to make sure that you're into it. Let's make sure, or let's talk about what that looks like. So that's just tied to the, to the sales observation there. That's something I have in the back of my head, but I think your point is, Prescient in that, that you were like, Well, maybe it's not the worst thing.

[00:31:11] And that was actually my next point is like, our delivery is getting really dialed in as we have fewer active clients. So this drawn out sales pipeline, the little bit of churn that we've had, it's not necessarily a bad thing because when you have less work on the table, then you have a little bit more breathing room and a little bit slower pace to actually focus on systems, processes, automations, that type of thing.

[00:31:31] Mm-hmm. . So we're making a lot of strides there in terms. Tightening those things up and then when we come back, when those deals close, those folks are gonna get a better experience because we've kind of had, I don't wanna call it a lull, but it's like, yeah, you just catch your breath a little bit and we'll hope that the next sprint comes sooner rather than later.

[00:31:47] But we're, we're setting ourselves up for success there. And then the last point I had here was I saw an educational opportunity. So the last time we talked, I think I. Hey, I'm seeing even more momentum behind this trend of repurposing. Like I'm seeing people talk about it in different contexts and different industry sectors types.

[00:32:02] Everybody seems to be all in on repurposing content. This week, what I wanted to talk about is like, I think there's an opportunity for us to educate folks on, you know, pretty much everything I've seen seems to be starting with written material and like, what can you do with a blog post? Like, how many different ways can you slice up a blog post, make it a Twitter thread, make it an infographic, all this kind of stuff.

[00:32:20] I haven't seen anybody really focusing on audio video. And then repurposing that into written material. Mm-hmm. . And I actually think that's the easier way to go because most people can communicate more information faster, speaking about it, especially if they know the subject matter well. When you write about it, you want everything to be perfect right away, and you sit there and you edit.

[00:32:41] Mm-hmm. in the process of writing and everybody knows that's a note. So I found that it's way less burdensome to just talking to a microphone or have an interview or something. Pop that into descript, get a transcript in seconds, if not minutes, and then use that as the raw material to go make the Twitter thread, the email newsletter, the blog post.

[00:32:57] To me that's, that's way more efficient and produces a better end product than trying to take written and get somebody to convert that into a script and then read it for a YouTube video. I just think it's like one way is climbing uphill and one way is running downhill. And I think there's an opportunity for, for Castaway and, and me personally, to get out there in the market and educate people on, like start with an.

[00:33:17] Right, and have the first asset be some kind of audio video, c. And then convert that to a transcript and then distribute that to all your different players to make the social post, to make the, the blog post, that kind of thing. Right,

[00:33:29] John Doherty (EditorNinja): right. Well, and I think for you it's, if we can, if we can just workshop it real quick.

[00:33:33] I mean, the reason why people don't do more audio and they don't do more video is because they kind of don't know what it takes. Right. And they think they need, like, you know, for video, they're like, Well, I need a, a streaming camera and I need a nice podcasting mic, and all this stuff like, No, you don't.

[00:33:47] Especially like if you're not actually gonna publish the, like the, the audio, right? Like AirPods and an iPhone , like, honestly, like, it's, it's really easy. But you can also tell them like, you, you need a pair of AirPods. Or actually, like the wired ones work better because the microphones better. Whatever you've discovered.

[00:34:03] Right? But like that doesn't even matter. It's like you need some sort of microphone, you need an iPhone. Record it in this specific, like, download this app, it's free. Right? And then here's how you share it to script, right? Or here, or like use rev.com and it costs you like $7 to get something transcribed, right?

[00:34:19] Which you can then chop into three different blog posts cuz you're probably gonna ramble. You know, just things like that. And just like, and maybe even like, you could even run. Five day audio creation challenge or just do it yourself. Say, Hey, every week I am doing a five day audio creation challenge.

[00:34:35] Here's my first one, here's my second one, here's my third one. And just like start working in public like that and then invite people to join. Right. I'll do it with you. Right. Invite people to join and then like, so, So you need to get people in the habit of creating, Right? I mean I do too. So like let's do it together, let's partner.

[00:34:49] But I think that could do really well for you. You know, cuz like you record and then you use the script and then this and that and the other. I'm a creator and the script scares me . Right. You know, like, so how do you get someone that like isn't a creator that hasn't done audio editing or video editing or whatever.

[00:35:05] How do you make it really easy for them, you know, to, to do it? So here's a funny way to do it. Here's a paid way to do it. I don't know. It, it could be, could be an interesting challenge for you.

[00:35:15] James Sowers (Castaway): Yeah, that's a great idea. Cuz I know Jay Klaus did the tweet 100 challenge and it was like, Tweet every day for a hundred days and see where your followers go.

[00:35:21] And he got a bunch of people to participate in that. Yeah. And people were saying like, on day 100, they were like, Look, I, I added 3000 followers in the last three months. Yeah. Just because I committed to tweeting every day. So I don't, I think that's really cool. And I think even if I, even if I did like a Twitter thread where it.

[00:35:36] In each individual asset, like the first tweet and the thread is like, Here's the video I record this morning. It's six minutes. Check back in in 30 minutes when I have the transcript ready or whatever. Okay, here's the transcript. Check back in 30 minutes. When I convert that to a Twitter thread, all right, here's what I came up with.

[00:35:49] Check back in 30 minutes from my newsletter, and it just like is an ongoing. Procedural type of thing. If you get people to participate with you in that, I could see that being really well received. So Awesome man. That was my last update. I did have one area I could use help with and I was gonna ask you specifically, cuz I've seen you doing this lately, is I think I wanna get out there and do like a, a podcast promo tour or maybe do some workshops or webinar maybe around this topic we were just covering.

[00:36:11] I know you've been on a few shows recently. I don't know how long ago those were recorded, cuz sometimes people keep these in a queue for a while, but like, do you have any advice around, you know, I, I'm pretty good at like, finding the right things to appear on, but any advice for building that, that the talking points or, you know, being a, being a great guest and dropping some knowledge there on the spot.

[00:36:28] Like, any advice from your experience? Yeah. I

[00:36:31] John Doherty (EditorNinja): think I will say first that I don't think I'm awesome at it. I think I've, I've gotten a lot better at it, but I find that the most successful ones are the ones where like, I'm not coming in trying to sound smart. I'm coming in trying to relate to people like I'm not, and, and also not trying to like convince people that I'm right.

[00:36:48] But I'm, but that like, hey, here's my experience, Here's what has worked for me. Right. So, you know, I was on Brian Clark's podcast, I'm seven figures, small couple of weeks ago, and, you know, we were talking about productized services and developing 'em, growing them, pricing 'em, et cetera. And I was, I was listening to it and I finished up.

[00:37:08] I was like, wow, that was actually one of my better ones. Why is that? Because I just know the, the content, you know, left, right, and center, you know, And it's not something that a lot of people know about, but I can explain it cuz I've thought about it a lot. . So I think that's, that's something is, you know, coming in and just trying to teach people, you know, from, from your like deep well of knowledge, right?

[00:37:27] So for you, maybe it's like, how do you find contractors to, to do this thing for you, right? How do you, like you, you're producing a podcast. How would you build this system yourself, right? Here are the people that you need. Here's how you find them. Here's how you've tried to find them before, right? Like, teach people how to do what you, because you know that cause you've been doing.

[00:37:45] And then, you know, and then really it's like, well, you could do all of that, but then you're employing six different people and it's gonna cost you three times as much, and you're gonna have to like, do all these things. You're gonna have to hire and fire and get them talking, et cetera. Or you just hire cast away and we just take care of it for you.

[00:37:59] I don't know. I, I does, does that, does that help? Like, that's one of the realizations I've

[00:38:03] James Sowers (Castaway): had. Yeah, I think so. And I think that's kind of the angle I was gonna come at it. I mean, Castaway came out of like, I had to solve this problem for myself. I was at an agency, I wanted to start a podcast. I didn't have the time or the luxury to do all this legwork myself.

[00:38:14] So I had to build a team and I had to build processes. And then I found out how hard that is. So I'm like, Well, now that I've kind of solved this for our purposes, let me just package it up and sell it to other people. And so I think if I, like say it in a way that's not like that, but more like a story, like, first I joined as head of marketing and we wanted to start a podcast and you know, then I had to find an editor and all this stuff and, and it was more like a, an experiential type of thing, like learning along the way.

[00:38:38] And then at the end, Well, by the way, that ended up being really cumbersome and you know, getting all those people to communicate and collaborate well in from different time zones and paying all those invoices all the time and just making sure that they had their queue filled and everybody got notified about new episodes.

[00:38:51] Like that was, that was a lot of headache. And if you wanted to fast forward through that part, like that's why I built Castaway and that's why I think it's valuable or whatever. So. Cool. Yeah, I think that's really helpful.

[00:38:59] John Doherty (EditorNinja): Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Yeah, you know, a lot of good people, but I'm always willing to help too, you know, with introductions and such.

[00:39:06] You know, there's, there's a handful that you should just get on. I'll, I'll ping em to you. I'll ping em to you privately. But no, I, I think it's a good, I mean, it's been great for even just like building the name, right. Building the brand name, you know, And I think also like it can help you rebrand yourself from like, you know, the freelancer guy to the podcast, you know, repurposing guy or the product eye service guy, or whatever it is.

[00:39:25] You know, like once people hear you talking about that, they start to reassociate you with things like, I'm no longer the seo. And I love it , but because I've done a lot of these like podcasts and, you know, conference talks and that kind of thing that are not seo, right. So like you, you kind of have

[00:39:41] James Sowers (Castaway): to break away.

[00:39:42] Awesome, man. Maybe we'll, maybe we'll wrap it up there, unless you have anything else from the editor Ninja side.

[00:39:46] John Doherty (EditorNinja): Yeah, I think, I'm think I'm good, man. Just keeping on, keeping on building, you know, listening to customers, I have some like, clear things I need to build to like, make the product stickier and make it valuable.

[00:39:56] So I'm excited to come back in, you know, a couple weeks and, and give an.

[00:40:00] James Sowers (Castaway): Yeah. Sounds good. All right. For anyone listening show notes will be available@workingsessions.fm. There's also a, a question and answer link in the navigation there where you can send us a question and maybe we'll use it for an icebreaker on a future episode.

[00:40:11] So, yeah, until then, we'll see you on the next working session. John, take care. Yep.

[00:40:15] John Doherty (EditorNinja): See you all later.