Working Sessions – Episode 16 – The Value Of Coaching
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[00:00:00] James Sowers (Castaway): All right. Hey John. Welcome back to another working session, man. Looking forward to catching up with you. It's been a couple of weeks and I know we kind of connected offline before we hit record here about life updates, but I know you're whipping around in a new ride today. That's probably the highlight from, from your side of the world, but I guess I'll, I'll see.

[00:00:19] How's it going so far? How are you liking it? Is it driving like a dream? Yeah,

[00:00:22] John Doherty (EditorNinja): man. Good to see you. Yeah, yeah. On the personal side, so I, I was telling you this offline, but to all the listeners, I'm a, I've been a car guy forever. I've always loved fast cars, flashy cars, and I basically, a few weeks ago, long story short, realized that was tired of driving a truck.

[00:00:36] Cause was like two months ago driving a truck like. As my daily driver in the city, we still need one in the mountains. And I basically talked to my wife and she was on board for me to get like a fun fast car again and to buy like a beater, you know, cheap truck for up to keep up in the mountains. And so, uh, last night I traded in my coma and got a, got a new Audi a 2016 Audi s.

[00:00:56] Six. So V8 twin turbo, 450 horsepower dad car. It's super fun, man. I'm, I'm having a blast. I have like a permanent grin on my face right now, so, and it ended up not costing me any more than the truck was. So actually my monthly payment is down like 150 bucks, so it was like, what really feels like a win. So, yeah, man.

[00:01:13] But yeah, that, that's good. Everything's all good here on the, on the Colorado front, on the front range. How are things in Ohio?

[00:01:19] James Sowers (Castaway): Good, good. I mean, the dads like me that are stuck driving Subaru legacies. You know, I would much rather prefer if I have to be in a sedan, I'd ra, I'd rather be in yours, but you know, I'll live vicariously through you.

[00:01:29] Otherwise, things have been kind of business as usual. We're, we're coming up on the end of the summer, just scare and fall here, which is crazy to think, but we've kind of saved our family beach vacation for Labor Day weekend, and so we're getting ready to head to the coast here in a little bit. You know, there's that, melancholy is not the right word, but that feeling of it's, it is a little bittersweet.

[00:01:45] It's like, yes, I'm looking forward to vacation, but also I have a ton of shit that I need to wrap up before I leave. And so there's that feeling of overwhelm where you get this like ticking clock, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is a reward out there. So I don't know, a little bit of a mixed emotions.

[00:01:58] There's like anticipation, but also a little bit of like stress around what needs to be done before we can fully unplug and feel good. , do you find

[00:02:04] John Doherty (EditorNinja): a boost of energy and a boost of productivity, like when you're in that space or does it just stress you out?

[00:02:10] James Sowers (Castaway): I think so. I mean, I, I think that like, ultimately I realize nothing I work on is life or death.

[00:02:15] And so if something doesn't get done, it's not the end of the world. But I do think it's the closest thing to replicating that. Like, Oh, should I have a term paper due tomorrow? And I haven't started it yet, or I started it and I got feedback from my professor and they said, It's awful, so I need to start over.

[00:02:30] Putting your back against the wall, I think can be extraordinarily motivating and can help produce some of the best work, like cramming the night before a test. You just don't get a lot of that as a 30 something dad and husband who's mm-hmm. , frankly, pretty comfortable in life right now. So, I don't know.

[00:02:44] Some, some of these things I think are, are productively stressful. I wouldn't wanna do it multiple times a year, but I do think that it's like, There's more positive outcomes from it than negative for me at least. Yeah. I

[00:02:53] John Doherty (EditorNinja): find that I used to push stuff off to after vacation and now I actually slam my week, like leading up to it full of stuff like calls and everything.

[00:03:02] Mostly because I have a team that can then like take things and run with it. Right. If I like. , whatever, sign a new customer or whatever, then at least this is definitely a credo. Then I def then I, I just get a bunch done and then I can go to vacation with a clear schedule and my assistant keeps my first two days back from vacation basically clear for me to catch up and to like get things done.

[00:03:20] Cause I always come back with like, you know, new ideas and super creative and all of that. So we, I just like try to set that time aside to harness it. But leading into it, I basically like get into vacation and. I am exhausted. . Yeah. I am so tired. I've worked 12 hour days for the last four days. I'm exhausted and then, you know, get on the plane, but have a, like a clear, clear mind.

[00:03:39] So yeah, that's, that's cool. Where are you going? Which beach you going

[00:03:43] James Sowers (Castaway): to? So while the kids are small, we only take them over to Delaware, which is basically an eight hour drive from where I'm at in Ohio. Yeah. So it's kind of like, you know, especially when they were newborns still in diapers and stuff like that, it was a very manageable drive.

[00:03:54] And this time of. It's like the water's not super warm, but they frankly don't swim in the water all that much at this age, like they put their legs in. But that's about it. So it's really about air temperature and having sunshine and the proximity. It's good enough for us now that they are getting to the point where we're probably gonna level up from Delaware and go somewhere else.

[00:04:12] Nice. And so that'll be the big decision point. Where do we go further down the coast and, and what's the right beach there? So I don't know if anybody has suggestions. I'm all ears because I've been to a bunch of places. I'm not a beach fanatic where I like have this pros and cons list of Myrtle Beach over, you know, somewhere else further south.

[00:04:27] So, yeah, I'm open to suggestions.

[00:04:29] John Doherty (EditorNinja): We used to go to the outer banks when I lived in, when I was growing up in Virginia. We'd go to the outer banks to go to like, Kittyhawk was one that we like going to, you know, Myrtle Beach is pretty like party and like, super like family, like pretty built up. Not my style.

[00:04:41] I lived there for a summer, so I know it. Cape Patis in South Carolina is awesome. You can also go to like Fort Sumter and, you know, all, all the like historical stuff. So yeah, I think Virginia Beach is overrated. Personally. We never really went there growing

[00:04:53] James Sowers (Castaway): up. Right. So , Right. Cool. Well, hey, look, now that we have done our top 10 list of east coast beaches, maybe we'll jump into the, the business content that everybody's here for.

[00:05:02] I brought the icebreaker today, so I guess I'll, I'll throw it out there. I've been thinking a lot about coaching. And what brought this up for me was basically like I'm constantly recommending that people get coaches, right? And I, I understand the value of coaches, like it's one of my favorite parts of the job.

[00:05:18] When I'm on a manager and I have a team and somebody needs some coaching or some mentorship, that's one of the most rewarding aspects of the job for me, especially as I've progressed in my career. So like, clearly I understand the value of a coach, but then I realize like, man, I haven't really had an actual coach, like a formal.

[00:05:32] Since I played high school sports or since I had organized sports in college, like I haven't had somebody who's dedicated to show up with me on a consistent basis and helped me get. And I don't really know why that is. I think most of the time when I think about engaging a coach for something, it kind of feels like I already know the answers and I don't, I don't necessarily wanna pay somebody to tell me what I already know, but I also understand like that's some of the value of coaching.

[00:05:54] So I think I've absorbed passively that you work with at least one or two coaches in some of the areas of your life. So I wanted to bring that to the table as like maybe how our experiences so far defer and why you see value in coaching and, and whether that's been helpful. You know,

[00:06:09] John Doherty (EditorNinja): progressing. I have worked with coaches for the last four and a half years, something like that, and it's been, I mean, it's been great.

[00:06:15] It's been fantastic. I've learned a ton. There has been some like kind of tactical stuff, but what I've found, especially like early on and just like when, you know, this is 2018 at Credo, when I first started working with a coach and we just had a lot of stuff to figure out, right? We had our business model to figure out.

[00:06:31] We had sales to figure out. We had, we had everything to figure out, even though we were a couple years. I mean, we almost doubled in size while I was working with that coach. And then I moved on to, uh, join SAS Academy with Mar Detel. And then I've been working with Chris Lema as well for the last, like few years.

[00:06:44] And I actually just recently stopped with SASS Academy, not because of like anything that happened, just that like I've been in it for three years. There's some stuff shifting around on my end, and so I'm like, You know what? I don't need that monthly expense also. I kind of feel like I've, I've graduated and, uh, I posted something about it on Facebook on Monday and even Martel, you know, commented and he was like, It's been awesome having you.

[00:07:04] You're a great client. You know, this isn't goodbye. It's see you later. Like, sort of thing, which is, which was great. Right. And I definitely felt sadness like leaving it, but I find, I find coaching to be super useful for the, like, especially like when you're a, when you're a leader, you know, And like, we don't, I don't need more like.

[00:07:19] I don't need more like email copywriting skills, like that sort of stuff, right? Like, yes, I could maybe hire like an expert to do like four to six sessions coaching me, right? Or I could get a course about that. But what I find useful for is so not having like a marketing coach or a. Copywriting coach or something like that necessarily.

[00:07:37] But for me, like Chris is really like, he's a like an executive coach for me, and so he helps me through like stuff that I've never dealt with before, whether it's team management or business finances, like a myriad of things. Like Chris has been super, super helpful for me in. . So that's where I find it really useful.

[00:07:52] And I actually posted something today after talking with Lima this morning about how like, cuz we, we got into some pretty like deep stuff around just like mindset of an entrepreneur. And so I, I was sharing with him some of my fears around even building editor and Ninja and some of the stuff that, like we've been talking about doing, uh, Basically we realize that like, I mean businessman is like 10% skills and 90% mindset.

[00:08:10] It's how you get over like your past hurts and all that. Punched through that kind of, you know, how do you dispassionately approach business while also carrying a ton, like that kind of thing. There's a reason why like Tiger Woods has his swing coach, right? And I have people that I listen to on marketing and development, whatever.

[00:08:24] Tiger has his swing coach. He also has his mindset coach, and so like, I think that's actually really important as well, is. Finding someone that kind of gets into that. And then also last thing I'll say, James, before I pass it over to you, is when I look at hiring a coach, cause I've hired three now, four now, something like that, three or four things I've realized that that matter to me are, number one, do they have experience coaching?

[00:08:44] Because a new coach is gonna be able to like help you out in a lot of ways, but. It's not gonna last super long probably. And they're kind of figuring out as they go. So Lima has been coaching for 20 plus years. Have they built the kind of business that I am trying to build? So like have they done the things?

[00:08:59] And then if they're experienced as a coach, then they can teach me how to do have they can coach me. Through those things and can save me a lot of time and effort, Right? And in just mistakes. And then thirdly, and this one, this is one people miss most often James, that I think is really important is, and this is different from like a, like a, a baseball coach or a football coach or whatever, are they also building the kind of life that I want to build?

[00:09:20] And so like if it's like a shorter term coach, right, like a copywriting, whatever, coach for four to six sessions doesn't matter as much. They're teaching you a skill. But if it's like an executive coach, The things that they're teaching you how to do and the way that they're like encouraging you and pushing you to, to build and run your.

[00:09:37] It has a dramatic effect on how your life ends up looking. Because if they're like a maximizer, right? Martel's a maximizer, and I love him for it. He is just trying to suck the marrow out of life, right? As the dead Poet society, you know, movie says, but you know, But then I look at Lima, and Lima works really hard.

[00:09:52] He also has a side hustle. He has a full-time job. He's a side hustle as a coach, you know, he's a dad and loves traveling and doing stuff and unplugging with his wife. You know, he takes like the occasional meeting from the cigar lounge, like Chris's lifestyle was more aligned with mine. That's not saying either one is better.

[00:10:06] But it's more aligned with mine. And so like I know the way, like he gets how I am and I get how he is, and I know that the, the advice he's giving me is moving me towards. That like, I don't care about becoming a cent a millionaire or a billionaire. I really don't. Right. I wanna build good businesses that are saying that I build good teams and, you know, I, I can live a great life.

[00:10:25] Right. And buy cool cars , so. Right. You know that. Anyways, that, so those are the three things I think are important at a coach. I just ran it a bunch. What's your, what's your take on, on Coach? Well, let me actually ask a different question. Why haven't you hired a coach?

[00:10:37] James Sowers (Castaway): Yeah. I don't think it's any intentional decision.

[00:10:40] I think really. It's come from a place of, you know, if I was working on Castaway full time, I think I'd be much more likely to make that investment because part of the value of working with a coach, I think, as someone who hasn't really done it in a business context before, is like you still gotta show up in between those meetings and do take action on the recommendations that are being made.

[00:11:00] And you know, when you're working on a side hustle on the side of a a day job, especially a W2 position, Sometimes activity happens in fits and starts, right? Like I might have a night where I put in four hours. I might have two nights where I put in none, and over the course of several weeks it ends up being in a couple hours a night or whatever.

[00:11:15] But you know, if I don't make it work in between those two sessions, then I lost a lot of the value that the coaches bring to the table. And it's not fair to them either because they're doing their part of. The job, and I'm not holding up my end of the bargain. So, and I also think it's like at any point good coaches aren't cheap.

[00:11:28] And if you find a, a cheap coach, maybe you're taking a gamble on somebody who's just getting started. Like, I think this is one of those things where you get what you pay for. And so if you're gonna make a significant investment, it has mostly felt to me like if I'm gonna spend a couple thousand dollars or whatever a month or a few thousand dollars a quarter, whatever the price happens to, On coaching, it feels like I might as well make a hire for a partial VA or something like that and that might do more for the business.

[00:11:52] Now I know that's probably a shallow or a narrow perspective on the matter because a lot of people would say, Well, to your point, working with a coach helped you double your, your entire business. And so like, yeah, over a long enough time horizon, I bet coaches do. Generate an outsize return if they're doing their job well.

[00:12:08] But it's hard to get over that hurdle of like, Man, I could just funnel this money into ads, content production, you know, expanding my staffing, any number of things, and see a quicker return on that. And so I think there's a little bit of a, a hesitation around that too, maybe. Yeah,

[00:12:23] John Doherty (EditorNinja): I can, I can see that. I mean, it was definitely a like, Well, let me just from personal experience, when I hired my first coach, it was, I had reached a point with my business.

[00:12:33] 10 x in a year. Credo had gone from two to 20 K a month in revenue. Hadn't hired, knew I didn't know how to hire. I still had like hangups from my last job around hiring and was like, I need to get, I need to get over this. I need to get through this, right? And like, I want business. Like I don't just wanna stop at 20 K a month because there's more demand here than that.

[00:12:51] but also I can't take it beyond 20 K a month myself in the way that it currently is. And so I needed someone smarter than me to help me do it. And so that's the coach I hired and it, it worked out great. But uh, I see that though. I see that especially like when you're, when you have a full-time job, right.

[00:13:05] And you have people Yeah. You know, I mean, yeah, it would be, it would be much more of just like leadership training and just like someone to talk with and maybe you get that from, you know, from John, like from your, your boss, right? Where you're talking about some more of that stuff. He's helping you develop and, and you're just a driven guy anyway, so like you're learning a lot of that versus when you're self-employed.

[00:13:20] Like if you're a full-time on Castaway, it would probably be get to be a different thing, or you would at least like. You know, prioritize. Like maybe you do a 30 minute long paid call with Lima once a month. Right? Something like that. It doesn't make sense necessarily. Like you don't, you can steer step into these things, right?

[00:13:35] You don't have to like Yeah. Commit to monthly, two grand a month like coaching, something like that. Like you probably should just like do calls with a few different people and see who you resonate with, right? And then from there you can like up the engagement if and when it makes sense. But I think more so it's about like, do you have people in your.

[00:13:52] that have input and, and in your business that have input into it, that you trust that also have your best in mind. And also like if you're paying them, I actually think some, some people have told me, they're like, Well, if you're paying 'em, then like they're just showing up cause they're getting paid.

[00:14:05] Like not, not necessarily. And also like, it's your choice. It's your choice like to keep paying them. So like if you're paying them and you're not getting the value and they're just phoning it in, stop working. Straight up, like there are more coaches out there, there's just gonna be a better one for you.

[00:14:18] So anyways, I think like also having someone that is invested in your success because like you're gonna stop paying them if they're phoning it in or if you're not getting results. So, you know, I think that can be really, really valuable as well. And I have found as someone that has coached people in the past, when someone's paying me for my time, man, if they pay for 15 minutes of my time, I'm trying to give them as much value as I possibly can in that 15.

[00:14:43] So as opposed to like, Yeah, I'll do a call with you, whatever, Right? Like, no, I put in like 30 minutes to an hour of prep ahead of time. I asked them for like what they're specifically looking for. Like I am ready to go. We like hop on, nice to meet you. Where are you calling from? Cool, let's get into it.

[00:14:57] Right? And we just get down to business. So anyways, that's my, that's my thinking. That

[00:15:01] James Sowers (Castaway): makes a lot of sense. And I think like the, the real limitation here is like as, as you're in a full-time role, either the cost of the coach comes outta your salary, so you're taking a salary or reduction effect. Or in the case that like I have castaway on the side, Like right now, engaging a coach on a recurring basis would probably take Castaway profit at least to zero if, if not like a significant part of the top line revenue too.

[00:15:21] So it's like, Hey, it's tough to make that call right now. And I also don't think I've reached the point that you were talking about where it's like the, The answer to me is very unclear right now. Like I haven't hit a point where it's like, I need to scale this thing. I need to scale the team and add a zero on the end of the number of team members I have, and I don't know how to get past that roadblock.

[00:15:38] I think if I hit one of those, I would definitely. Seek out a coach. But your point about like stair stepping is like, and maybe it's as simple as just book a clarity call clarity.fm with the same person on a regular basis. It's only 30 minutes instead of that, that monthly subscription or whatever. And uh, and that's a way to get the best of both worlds, right?

[00:15:53] You kind of cap your, your expenses or cap your investment. At least for now, you get to try a number of different coaches in a low risk. And then hopefully you, your business grows over time to the point where you can engage that person in a more significant way. Yeah.

[00:16:05] John Doherty (EditorNinja): And find the people that are already investing in you that you can tell care, even if you're not like, you know, paying 'em on a subscription.

[00:16:11] Like with Lima, I first, like quick backstory was basically I met him through a mutual friend. We hopped on like a 15, 20 minute call, or this is like February, 2016. So I've been on my own for like five months and Chris was like, Wait, you're doing. . What? What's, what's your business? Okay, you're, And you're doing it.

[00:16:26] How? No, that's all wrong. Do this. Basically told me to build out a subscription product and I did. And we went from, that was how we went from 2000 to like 20,000 by end of the year, and that was February. And then in November I was like, I should talk to that Lima guy again and see what else he has to say cuz he was smart.

[00:16:40] And so I booked a clarity call. And we hopped on a call. This is 2016, so Zoom wasn't around. He's like, Wait, you're, You're Austin's friend, right? I'm like, Yeah. He's like, Cool, here's my Skype. Let's hop on and talk. And he just talked to me for 30 minutes and he told me later, he's like, Look, I'll do a call with anybody once, but I don't follow up with them until they have shown me that they valued what I, what I told them they did it.

[00:16:59] And then they followed back up with me. And once they follow up with me again, then I know that. They're, they're one to invest in. Cause otherwise he's, he feels like he's wasting energy and I completely agree. I don't know if that's repeatable, but like, maybe it is just by like getting on the phone with smart people and then that relationship goes, That's how I met Martel the first time.

[00:17:14] So, anyways, let's coaching for

[00:17:16] you.

[00:17:17] James Sowers (Castaway): Yeah, yeah. There's the, there's the coaching Cliff notes. Maybe let's talk about, let's talk about what coaching's done for you. Atin Ninja. I know you've probably. Had that on the agenda at some point when you're sitting there on the, uh, on the proverbial couch Right.

[00:17:28] Doing the sessions. So, um, what are things like in, on your side of the world? So what's going

[00:17:31] John Doherty (EditorNinja): on at Editor and Ninja? So I'll just do a quick update and I wanna start like, kind of digging into like some specific, like somewhat deeper. So just quickly on the operations side, had to let an editor go just in it ended.

[00:17:42] Wasn't a good fit for the team. Hired a new editor who I think is gonna be a great fit for the team. It's just interesting realizing that like, this is just gonna be just continuing on from conversation two weeks ago. It's, this is just gonna be a more like operationally heavy. Than Credo and so I just need to find an operator, right?

[00:17:57] As soon as like revenue allows for it. And I don't know if it. Eight editors, six editors, 10 editors. I'll probably start looking at six so I can get the right person in at 10. Right. In like a fractional way. So, you know, it's just like we're just, we're operating, we're building. And I did get those new pages out that we talked about a couple of weeks ago.

[00:18:12] I got those launched, like kind of defining specifically what we do, like one document subscription editing, and then the like dedicated editor. And that seems to have helped people like understand what we do and what we offer, which is, which is really cool. So, and I've just been doing a bunch of, like on the marketing side and SEO side, just.

[00:18:28] Bunch of cleanup, like just making sure stuff is formatted well on, on mobile, right? Cleaning up some texts, like just that sort of stuff. Cuz like I'm, you know, I'm investing in seo, investing in content and like traffic's increasing, demos are increasing. And so with that, I don't wanna waste traffic, right?

[00:18:44] Just because of like stupid, like spacing that makes sense on desktop, but not on mobile. So like, I've just been doing stuff like that. I use Elementor on WordPress, so it's like I've just been d learning that more. It's like easy, like one click, like don't show this on mobile. Do show this on desktop, so like I can actually change some like layouts and such, which is pretty cool.

[00:19:01] The thing I wanted to talk about in deeper and well, and also just like on the business side, like signed. Two new customers had four new people do like single documents to kind of test out the service. So, you know, we're converting people. Just like the design work I've done and the like conversion stuff I've done seems to be working.

[00:19:18] So it's good, like good science. Also, we're going into like a good season for b2b. You know, the thing I've really been thinking about, man, like I got, I don't know if you saw this on my social profiles, but like I got new head. Done a couple of weeks ago. My last headshot was from 2016, and I have a lot more gray in my beard now and a much more receded hairline As I get his time.

[00:19:36] My teeth are now straight, so I'm like, All right, let's like, let's do this. So I got head shots done. It was great, but realized that like, I wanna build editor and ninja in a different way than I've built Credo, because when I was. Starting off with Credo, it was just like, I gotta survive. And it was a scarcity mindset.

[00:19:51] And now I'm operating from more of an abundance mindset. And I'm like, all of my competitors are kind of boring. They're very b2b, they're, their sites are pretty dark. Like it's just, let's make this thing into a brand. Like let's be opinionated, let's have big, bold colors. Like, you know, just like a really bright like, you know, kind of take to it.

[00:20:10] And also, , let's like, we're not going all, almost all, basically all of my competitors are like, Submit a single document, submit your dissertation, or whatever your article, and like get it. Which we do too, but I really want this to be like a, a, like a, like a brand in a way that Credo has, has never been. And so like treating customers like their gold because they are, And so many businesses focus on just acquisition, right?

[00:20:37] I'm an acquisition marketer, I focus on acquisition, but like, how do we actually take people and turn them into raving fans? They're just basically gonna become like, Free referral sources cuz they're so happy that they're telling all of their agency owner friends that they're using er Ninja and it's fantastic.

[00:20:51] Right. We're getting mentioned at conferences, like all that kind of thing. So I've been reading a book called Never Lose a Customer Again. Have you read, have

[00:20:57] James Sowers (Castaway): you read this one? I haven't read it, but it's on my Amazon wishlist. Yeah. Yeah. So I,

[00:21:01] John Doherty (EditorNinja): I recently got it on Audible and I've been listening to it, but it's really interesting thinking about like, how do we like a, make people feel super welcome, Like a, how do we help them get, like, get their first stock back?

[00:21:13] And then how do we make sure that they're happy with it, Right. And get their feedback and adjust if we need to. Because productized services are basically 80% productized and 20%, like making little tweaks for individuals to, to make them super happy, right? Cause everyone has those little bit of, of edges.

[00:21:27] And so like we have to allow for a little bit of that within a productized service. But then like, how do we, how do we make 'em just go like, Holy crap, I'm so glad I signed up. I'm looking at ways like, how do I automate swag bags? Swag boxes. Going to new customers who are like, they sign up, it automatically goes to a service and within like three days they have like an editor ninja, a shirt, hat, stickers, and a journal.

[00:21:49] Like on their front step, right? And like, cost me 30 bucks. Like, especially if I buy in bulk, like ahead of time, like, yeah, it's an investment, but like, I bet you that's gonna, that's gonna help with retention, it's gonna help with activation, it's gonna help with all of that. So like, it's just stuff we've never done at Credo.

[00:22:03] It's simply because I've always operated from a different mindset, right? And so starting at our ninja, like that's, that's how I'm thinking about it. So I don't know if that resonates with thoughts you have, but like that's, that's what I'm really thinking about right now with this. .

[00:22:15] James Sowers (Castaway): Yeah, I think that's really cool and I think it's a step in the right direction.

[00:22:17] I think I even commented on your, your new profile picture, you tweeted about it or something. I said, I love these colors. I don't know any editing service that has this much personality. So I think that's definitely like a point of differentiation and a smart, smart play on your part. Yeah. I think in terms of like delighting customers, when you get to the point where this can be like in the job description for somebody's role, I'm thinking like an account manager.

[00:22:38] Or product or project manager, or head of operations, chief of staff, something in that kind of vein. It, it should be like 20% time on delighting customers. And that can come in a variety of ways. But like just little things like, hey, when somebody signs up, go follow them on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and like check in on that account, those accounts, once we can just see what they're talking about.

[00:22:57] Mm-hmm. , that's where you find those little. . Oh, she mentioned that. Like she blew out a running shoe. Like, oh, she's a trail runner. Okay, cool. Like maybe what kind, what model did she have? I kind of recognize that that's the new balance, 7 32 s, and it looks like she like purple or whatever. Like let me just go get another pair and send it to her footstep.

[00:23:13] And it's like, yeah. Stuff like that. Going above and beyond, I mean, whatever. It depends what your budget is, but little creative elements like that are. Hey, I saw a picture of her like sending her her kid to kindergarten on the first day of school, and it's like, mm-hmm. . What if you just send a little handwritten note like I as a mom or a dad, I know that's a tough day for you.

[00:23:29] I've been through that myself, or I'm not looking forward to it. Just wanted to let you know that me and the team over here are thinking of you and like, here's something nice to, you know, whatever, hold you over it. Like, just little, little things like that. But I think it's, it's two pieces. You have this established process that's kind of like your swag bag that you were talking about, but there's also this like observational, like social listening.

[00:23:46] It doesn't have to be on social media, but like just staying in touch, just checking in to see how things life's going outside of business or or elsewhere in their company. The other things that they have on their calendar that week that aren't related to editing and finding a way to like not, not layer more editing into it necessarily, but layer a human element into it and be like, Hey, we're people too, right?

[00:24:04] We have common interests, we have common concerns, we have empathy. We're here to do more than. run documents through an editing queue for you. Like we, we wanna be a partner for you. The other thing that I was thinking, Well, two more things. One, having a dedicated budget, like anything up to this dollar amount, you are free to take action on without approval to delight a customer.

[00:24:22] And I've heard that. Yeah. Repeated over and over in a bunch of different types of organizations. Maybe it's $50. Yeah, maybe it's a hundred dollars, whatever. If it's a high ticket service, maybe it's a thousand dollars. But like anything up to that dollar amount, if you're a frontline person and you think it's gonna rock somebody's world, go make it happen and we'll be here to support you and, and consider it already approved.

[00:24:39] Right. The other thing I was gonna say is like there's a really key point between point of. And that first document, and in your case, like maybe that happens in 48 hours and that's a really tight window, but in an eCommerce setting, like I don't know if you've ever bought something and then you get that kind of like confirmation email.

[00:24:55] You get that receipt, you might get a shipping notice, but it's all templated stuff. It's all like uninteresting emails that you just kind of like archive or tickle for a later date, and then nothing happens for a week until you actually get the product. That is the best time. That is when somebody's mood is the highest.

[00:25:11] Their trust, their feelings around your brand are the strongest. And if you're just being radio silent during that time, you're missing a huge opportunity because you can educate them about how to use the product. You can give them recipes if it's like a food product, you can help them get more value out of it and build that anticipation while they're waiting for it to get to their doorstep.

[00:25:28] And in service businesses, we have an opportunity to do the same thing. And I see almost nobody doing this. Point of sale. Maybe we turn around your first project in a week. So all along the way we're saying, Hey, hope you're getting excited. Um, you know, when this article comes back to you, you're gonna see comments that look like this.

[00:25:42] Here's why we do that and here's why it makes it a better piece. Or like, you know, just things like that. Or like, here's what to do once you get your article back, make sure you check these three things because that's gonna be the technical SEO checklist that you need to get the most out of the piece.

[00:25:53] Or here's five ways to repurpose it. Anything that like adds value, I think that leans on your expertise and, you know, delights customers too, cuz they get even more out of.

[00:26:02] John Doherty (EditorNinja): I think that that's really smart. I mean, I, I've been thinking about onboarding as well, and just like onboarding emails and like, you know, just to get up and going.

[00:26:08] On Editor Ninja, there's basically like, here's where you upload your first document and then like after they've uploaded their first document, do some sort of like fun, like I signed up to, to bento bento now.com at Jesse Hanley. Like when you do something for the first time, like you add a person or something, there's like confetti.

[00:26:25] It's like yay and confetti that goes across the screen and. A, I hope that's called like confetti dot js cuz that would be awesome. Something like that, that's just like, like, oh, that's delightful. Right? But then also the like, hey, you've uploaded your first document. That's awesome. Here's what's happening next.

[00:26:40] And by the way, did you know about our bookmarklet that makes it super easy to, you know, to add documents to your queue. Like, click here and drag it to your bookmarks. You know, it'd be easier to submit documents, like stuff like that, right? That just. Helps 'em be clear on what it is, as opposed to like, Oh, I wish I knew that.

[00:26:54] Right? Like sort of stuff. I'm like, I'm inviting feedback now, like, and on every document that comes back, it's like, you know, we'd love your feedback. Like hit reply here. Like, we're a young customer centric service that really wants to build something of value for you, and we love your feedback, so please let us know.

[00:27:11] Yeah. That human element, right? And then what you're talking about even goes the next. Like when I left SaaS Academy, I got an email that was like, we, we'd like to send you a gift, and it's like a whiskey set. glasses and like whiskey stones and that kind of thing. I'm like, like I'm a whiskey guy. Like that is a super personalized gift there, you know, They know me.

[00:27:30] Super cool. Also like doing it when I'm leaving, like that's next level. Like that's cool. And I'm obviously telling people about it now and I know, I know Dan is, is deep into like the Giftology John Rolin world. Like John spoke at one of the inten quarterly intens that we had. I actually had the book sitting right here on my desk.

[00:27:44] But um, yeah, I think just like that's what builds rating fans, which is kind of, you know, what, what we're trying to do here, what I'm trying. .

[00:27:51] James Sowers (Castaway): Yeah. And I, I love video too, like when, imagine if an editor delivered, turned a piece around and it's got, I mean, everybody hates seeing like 50 comments in there.

[00:28:00] They're like, Oh, they ripped this piece apart. Right? Even if they're all grammatical changes or whatever, like, but imagine if. Yeah, your editor just fired up Loom and recorded just a five minute loom video that's like, Hey, you're gonna see a lot of grammatical changes in here. They're pretty, you know, cut and dry.

[00:28:13] But here are three like qualitative comments that I put in here, and here's my thought process behind that, and here's why I think you should strongly consider implementing those, or here's why I already implemented those for you. Like just that little touch of like, here's a face. Here's a voice, here's a brief explanation of the thought process.

[00:28:27] Not just like, here are these comments with no context or very little context. Something as small as that is takes almost no investment in terms of time or resources, but like, can really make a difference and separate you from the the pack. I think so. I don't know. There's, there's all kinds of opportunities out there.

[00:28:40] You know,

[00:28:40] John Doherty (EditorNinja): I'll update as I get deeper into this. It's definitely something that I'm, that I'm looking at. So what's going on? The castaway side, man. You said that some good, uh, feels like some stuff has shifted. Yeah. Mess

[00:28:50] James Sowers (Castaway): us up. Yeah, I feel like, I feel like the last time we talked to was fairly, uh, morose or, I don't know, just, just low energy.

[00:28:55] Like things weren't, there's not a lot of positivity floating around and feeling, feeling a lot better a couple of weeks later. So that's, that's how entrepreneurship goes, I guess. But a couple highlights, sales pipelines looking really strong. I've got two really good leads in the pipeline that if they both landed, would almost double monthly revenue.

[00:29:09] So we'll see like what, whether they wanna go subscription or bundle or something like that. But, you know, that's, that's the nice thing about selling a higher price service is it only takes a couple to really make a difference. We'll see how those shake out. But even having those conversations right now feels really good, especially considering I'm not doing much in the way of like lead generation with the limited time I have, it's more sustaining operations and, and trying to find that next client so that we can invest more, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:29:31] I also have, I guess what I'm calling a whale client, a potential whale client who wants to test things out. So this person has basically, they have a podcast that I was listening to. They talked about content repurposing as a genius business idea that they don't have time to pursue, but they think is like a gold mine for the right person.

[00:29:47] Pretty much described what I'm trying to do with Castaway. So I was like, Hey, I'm doing what you talked about. And you know, in the podcast they said, if somebody did this really well, I'd pay $5,000 a month for this right now. And I have a newsletter, and I bet on that newsletter are, you know, 10 more folks who would sign up pretty quickly if I recommended it.

[00:30:04] So of course the bells going off in my ears when I hear that. So I reach. And managed to connect with them and, and I said, Look, I'll do it 30 days for free, if that makes it a no brainer for you. And if you like it, we can keep going and we can talk from there. If you don't like it, that's okay and, and we'll just part ways or we'll try again or whatever it takes.

[00:30:19] So really excited about that. I sent him all the onboarding stuff to collect the brand assets and stuff and hopefully we'll kick that off. That'll be the month of September and I'll be able to Awesome. Share an update. Yeah. There. So that's really cool.

[00:30:29] John Doherty (EditorNinja): So is that a bigger sort of engagement than what you usually do outside of.

[00:30:33] I mean, it sounds like it's, it's larger potentially, and like maybe even a bit, a bit custom,

[00:30:38] James Sowers (Castaway): or is it just like more volume? So he threw the number out there and didn't really say like what he would expect to get from that. It was more like, Hey, I think content repurposing is so smart, especially if you start with a podcast and you convert it into things like, uh, blog, article, newsletter, social media posts, video clips, like all the things that we do.

[00:30:52] So we, I didn't, there wasn't like a, a list of deliverables that I could ch go down the list and check everything. But loosely throughout, like I'd pay five grand a month for that. Well, right now, for an equivalent service line or something that sounds pretty equivalent through Castaway, it'd be about three grand a month.

[00:31:06] So that's an extra $2,000 that, you know, it's, it's just somebody's words at this point. You don't know if they're actually gonna swipe their credit card for 5k, but the fact that you said 5k and I'm priced at three K, means I'm probably like, Within the right realm. Right. And if not, if anything, I could probably charge a little bit more for the right people.

[00:31:21] So yeah, I think it's like, depends exactly what he wants. If he wants to start with 5K and find a package that fits that, or if he has a set of deliverables and how well that already matches our three K price. But yeah, it seems like, you know, it would either be landing kind of our top priced package pretty easily and then hopefully getting 10 more of those or doing a custom engagement that's worth even more.

[00:31:42] Right. And is customized to. The other thing I had on here is just competitors have been quiet, which like, I usually don't watch competitors like a hawk, but like I don't, I don't turn on notifications in one of those, like race horses wear blinders for a reason. Cuz if you look to your left and right, you're gonna fall behind.

[00:31:55] Right. But at the same time, like they do end up in my feed just because of mutual interest and we follow the same pages and stuff like that. And uh, I've passively collected that like one person took a full-time job and has basically not been talking about his service much. Another one seems to be focusing.

[00:32:09] Independent consulting practice and then another one to kind of stop publishing to their social media and their email list for three weeks or something like that. So, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not wishing for anybody's downfall, but you know, just observed it and was like, Hey, that's that help, that's helpful.

[00:32:22] Right. It certainly doesn't hurt me to have things go quiet in that area. So yeah, that's something I've noticed over the last couple weeks.

[00:32:27] John Doherty (EditorNinja): Yeah, it's like less competition, but also they're also not calling attention to the space as much. Right. Like I'm very much a like rising tides lift all boats sort of person.

[00:32:37] But at the same time, if you have fewer people that you're up against to close deals. Yeah, I

[00:32:41] James Sowers (Castaway): mean it's, it's, for some people that could be concerning, like maybe that's a signal. There's not as much demand in the market and these businesses aren't like doing well. But I'm seeing all kinds of signal about repurposing being a smart idea.

[00:32:50] Like not just this one podcast I talked about here today, but I mean, I, I see a handful of people every week across Twitter, LinkedIn, and stuff, just touting the, the value of repurposing your content into other formats and like, are they saying explicitly take a podcast and convert it into written. No, but I mean the principal's there and so I think there is momentum and there is this kind of like wave behind, Don't just hit publish and move forward, like turn every piece into dozens of other smaller pieces and make them native to different platforms and stuff so you can get the most mileage.

[00:33:17] Like that feels intuitive and obvious, and I still think there's a lot of buy in there. So I'm not worried about the demand side. I think it's more like people are in the same position I'm in where it's like, man, this is kind of feeling like a grind. I got this day job. Maybe if they're working on something like Castaway full time and it's not going as well as they, like a day job starts to look pretty attractive.

[00:33:32] You know? And so you take that security, I don't know, but I think it's more a signal of like something in the world of these people isn't lining up the way they'd like to, for them to focus on their equivalent services. So they're focusing in other areas of life, which certainly doesn't hurt.

[00:33:45] John Doherty (EditorNinja): Seems there's a lot of people kind of doing it as a side project.

[00:33:47] I mean, like you are, and there are very few that. Yeah. I mean, you have the big ones, right? Mm-hmm. , repurposed house and companies like that. Everyone else is pretty kind of doing it on the side, which is, which is interesting. And maybe, maybe it's just a hard business to do on the side. I don't know. I mean, you, you found that it is, but yeah, it's, it's just an interesting, like, observation.

[00:34:04] There's not a whole lot of, like, from what I can tell, small, Like people Yeah. In the, yeah. Small people, people doing it part-time with a fairly small like service.

[00:34:14] James Sowers (Castaway): Yeah, I think it's really hard to get a multidisciplinary team of contractors together and manage that without full-time attention. So I think, I think that that's my hunch anyway.

[00:34:23] It could be that. Okay. And then I have, we kind of touched on the time I had time off down here as like, What, what did that, What does that look like for you? I think we touched on that in the intro, so I'll focus on the second piece where I kind of wanted to dig in and get a little bit of coaching right, or feedback around is, I've talked about this personal branding service or like authority building service, basically like when the traditional castaway service package is, you start with a podcast and you produce marketing assets, this personal branding angle.

[00:34:47] Somebody from my team interviews you. 30 minute interview every week, or a 60 minute interview, twice a month, whatever. And then we turn that video and that transcript and everything into social media assets, video and tweets and LinkedIn posts and stuff like that to fill your, your queue. Five business days a week.

[00:35:02] Right. And build your personal brand. So a couple of things around this, like I'm not sure if this is too different from the core service offering for it to be layered on top of Castaway. And I'm almost wondering if it needs like a standalone site, but I don't want to launch another brand, you know, and have to worry about everything that goes into that.

[00:35:18] But it does feel a little bit like kind of a tough sell. If you land on the Castaway landing page and it's saying like, turn your podcast every podcast episode into dozens of marketing assets. And then there's this dropdown or this service page or something that. Build your personal brand or it, it just, mm-hmm.

[00:35:32] feels like a little bit of a departure and you're almost taking somebody a step back in the sales funnel to reeducate them on like this different perspective. But I'm wondering if I'm just too close to the day-to-day, too deep in the weeds to really appreciate that. Like maybe it's not that big a deal.

[00:35:45] So somebody who's like maybe a prospect for this service, technically speaking, like, I mean, you've got a big following and, and stuff, and you post regularly already. Let's assume that you would be a candidate for something like this. Like, I don't know, if you laid it on the Castaway site and it had a personal branding tab, do you think that would make sense to you?

[00:35:59] Or do you think you'd be kind of confused about where that came from? I don't think

[00:36:02] John Doherty (EditorNinja): I'd be confused. The reality is when your business is as young as both of ours are, that we're talking about here, people don't really know you, so they show up and their first question is like, what does this thing offer and is it for me?

[00:36:15] Right? Which is why it's important to be clear, why I think the, like those three, like kind of top level landing pages I launch are being effective. But people can, people also expect to see multiple things, you know, And actually you're giving them more ways to buy. Like it's, it's another part of your ladder.

[00:36:29] I think you can repurpose your existing team, right, to like, to do this stuff as well. You just need to add on a person to interview them once a week, Right? To queue up content, to, you know, do all of that. So like at, I, I would not, I personally would not be. Put off by it or confused by it, I'd be like, Oh, that's an interesting service.

[00:36:48] Like maybe it's, you know, maybe it's a better fit. Like maybe I don't have a podcast, but I am trying to build my brand or whatever, you know, looking to repurpose content. And anyways, so I would definitely do a, a landing page. I would talk about like repurposing content, or maybe it's even just like, you know, scaling content distribution or something like that, right?

[00:37:07] Like, People are just so used to now, like, take a podcast and chop it up or take a video and chop it up and put it on social and put it on Twitter and you know, like take a blog post, like take a podcast and turn it into a blog post and turn that into quotables that you put on visual places and you know, just all of that.

[00:37:24] People are just getting really much more used to that LinkedIn, right? People are getting really used to that, like repurposing. So like, and I don't see anyone doing it. people as much, like everyone that's doing it, Gary v Homos, people like that. They've all hired their own like videographers and like people to do it.

[00:37:42] Mm-hmm. . So like if you could scale it and make it accessible to someone like myself, that'd be really interesting.

[00:37:49] James Sowers (Castaway): Yeah, I was probably, I figured I was probably overthinking it and at the very least I would do. A landing page and then I would, if I'm gonna do ads or something, I would have the ad headline very clearly, talk about the personal branding angle.

[00:37:59] So as long as those two things align, Yeah, like the ad copy, the cta, and then the page that you're directed to. I don't really see too much of a hurdle with it. I was more concerned about cold traffic or, you know, referral traffic, like friend of a friend landing on the homepage and seeing like, the headline literally says, Maximize the marketing value of every podcast episode.

[00:38:16] And then exploring the services and being like, personal branding. What does that, how does that fit in here? To your point, I think the people who get it get it. Like they already follow Alex Hormo or The Hill Bloom or any of those guys, and they're like, Yeah, I see Grant Cardone out here chopping this stuff up and doing TikTok tos from his conference talks.

[00:38:31] So like, I wanna be Grant Cardone. It looks like this service can help me do that, so let's make it happen, kind of

[00:38:36] John Doherty (EditorNinja): thing. Yeah. Well you could even change your age one to like, you know, maximize the marketing value of every of your content. Yeah, something like that, Right. Of all of your content. And in under services you could have like podcasts, repurposing, blog posts, repurposing personal brand or personal branding or something like that.

[00:38:53] Thought leadership is actually what I would call it. And is basically your like brand, your like personal branding thing, but it's building people as a thought leader, which builds your personal brand. I agree. Yeah,

[00:39:03] James Sowers (Castaway): that actually, uh, I was looking at repurpose house sites cuz they're kind of the generalist competitor that I always look at and their headlines as we multiply the results of your efforts spent on creating.

[00:39:12] And so that is very much like broad categorical. Yeah, definitely an angle I would take if I was working on it full time. Cause it'd be like, Yeah, let me get all the cash. Right. I'll do all the projects. You wanna repurpose a blog post into tweets. Sure. Like, I'll do that. Yeah. I think some of the, the benefit of focusing on podcasting is like the simplicity and the systemization and, you know, the, the whole productized part of the productized service and the repeatability there.

[00:39:32] Mm-hmm. . But I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe there's value in moving more generalist, but having dedicated like silos, I guess for each like use case. Yeah. Basical. All right, man. That's helpful. That's the last thing I had. Did we miss anything on your list? I think we're okay and we're coming up against time, so maybe we'll bring it for a landing.

[00:39:47] John Doherty (EditorNinja): Yeah, yeah. No, I'm, I'm good, man. Operating, growing. Lots of exciting stuff coming

[00:39:52] James Sowers (Castaway): up. Yeah, love it. Okay. Show notes and anything we reference today will be available@workingsessions.fm. Yeah, you can click the link in the top navigation there that says, Ask a question if you have anything specific. We're always looking for icebreaker ideas.

[00:40:05] We're usually coming up with these last minutes, something we see on Twitter or in our email inbox. So, uh, it's always good to hear directly from the listeners, and then at least we're addressing topics that you actually care about. Right. So feel free to drop one in and maybe we'll hear it on a future episode.

[00:40:16] But until then, John, we'll see you in the next working session, man. See

[00:40:18] John Doherty (EditorNinja): you.